Thursday, November 29, 2007

Interesting update

Are the Sox the frontrunners?The latest rumor involving the Red Sox and Santana is the juiciest yet. According to a report from Charlie Walters of the St. Paul Pioneer Press (who sources “a little birdie”) on Thursday, the Sox are now the frontrunners to land Santana as part of a trade package that does not include either Jacoby Ellsbury or Clay Buchholz. According to Walters, the Red Sox would receive Santana in exchange for Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, and minor league prospects Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson, both of who rank among Boston’s top young talent. More from Walters: “Before a deal could be made, the Red Sox would have to have time to negotiate a contract extension with Santana, 28, who can become a free agent after next season and could have a market value as high as $150 million over six years."


  1. Did we just link to the St. Paul Pioneer Press for two posts in a row? I dunno, I think after that first one they don't have that much credibility...

    Still, interesting tidbit. And you have to assume the Twins leaked this info in order to make Phil Hughes a little less "untouchable".

  2. I hope you meant future HOF'er Joba and not Hughes. I'm sure there is a lot of posturing going on, but Hughes really struggled with command last year. I'm sure NY would deal him in a minute. I think he and Lester are a lot like that.

    I agree 100% on that being leaked my the Twins in an effort to get Hal to go apecrap and order Cashman to deal Joba, Hughes and Melky to keep him away from the Sox.

  3. Wow... That's some HOT stove. Things are finally heating up.

    Good call by Earl on X's nose being caught with back-to-back posts from a Twin City daily.

    The Yankee PR machine was quick to respond. Using Posada, the voice of reason, to quell the Yankee faithful. Hank reaches out through his dutiful knight and kisses last year's prices a fond farewell. Prevailing wisdom in the Kingdom, oops I mean Empire, is with Pettitte's return in question pitching is a big question. And so, bidding last year's prices farewell, Hank assures the Twins know they will pay top dollar.

    "I love the young kids. I love all three of them. They have bright futures," Posada said.

    As we all know, "bright future" means they win in a couple years not next year. And the Steinbrener way is to win NEXT year.

    You've got to admire Hank's balls to be like his old man.

    It might pan-out. Santana is certainly worth the risk despite my keen reporting about his potential arm-implosion.

    Anyway, I like the Sox deal too and who just won the Championship on the backs of our princes :-)

  4. Yeah, Joba is the big untouchable - I just picked a propsect at random buty ou're right.

    Much more here.

  5. If this deal includes Buchholz and Lester, I am not sure. For one thing, yes, you'd have a ridiculous one-two-three from this year on...But you don't have depth. If Beckett's finger acts up, or someone else goes down, what do you do?

    This is Schilling's last year, and it could be Wakefield's last year, too. Ok, we're talking about a 4 and a 5 here, I know, but also arms to fill-in if one of the top three goes down.

    The last report I heard this morning was Coco, Lester, Bowden, and Lowrie. I am surprised that, just having traded for Delmon Young, that the Twins would want Coco.

    And one last thing...The Sox will be much more like the Yankees if they get Santana at huge money...that bothers me.

  6. Agree with you 100% about the Sox becoming like the Yanks if they shell out 3 prospects and $150M. Plus Beckett may have to be given a raise to keep him happy if we import a new number 1. My guess (my hope) is that Theo is trying to force Hank Steinbrenner to get rid of Chamberlain/Hughes.

    Delmon Young's normally a RF, so they still help at center.

  7. I am torn about the whole "becoming the Yankees debate". While ponying up 3 prospects and $150M clearly looks like what the Yankees would do in the past, does this make the Red Sox the "New Yankees"?

    My thought was that the Yankees overspent on crusty vets, not 28 year old 2-time Cy Young winners. Furthermore even without Lester and the other prospects we still will have a core of home built talent starting games next season. Also very un-Yankee like.

    Maybe I am selfish, but I have admired Santana from a far for 5-6 years now. I would love to see him in a Red Sox uniform!

  8. I don't know about that IBID.

    The Yankees had Cano, Cabrera, Jeter, and Posada on the field this year. Granted two are old and two are young.

    They also started Hughes and brought up Chamberlain. Rivera is one of theirs too, right?

    Yes, they overspend on veterans, but Renteria and Drew and Gagne could fall into that group. Granted Gagne wasn't "expensive" but they gave up a decent to good young LEFThander and an outfielder who hit the cover off the ball in Texas.

    The Sox young guys will be Youk (sort of), Pedroia, Ellsbury, and Papelbon. Add Buchholz if they don't trade him away.

    They'll have two guys on the roster making over 20MM, and a slew of guys making 9MM or more.

    Would Santana guarantee another WS victory or two? More than likely. But wouldn't the Sox have a very legit chance at 2 WS championships without Santana? More than likely.

  9. Please - the Sox are not becoming the New Yankees. that is a bunch of nonsense. Yes, they have the second largest payroll. And can cover thier mistakes.

    But exactly has been pointed out – getting guys who are in their prime is vastly, vastly different than what they Yankees have done in the past. Aging vets. In desperate moves. Just look at last year – they spend about $75MM on three old pitchers Mussina, Andy P. and Clemens. Pretty much every one of their FA acquisitions in the last 8 years has been a failure in the long run – seriously. The Raul Mondesi trade might have been the biggest joke of all.

    And I know that Jeter, Mo and Posada all came up through the Yankee system – but that was eons ago. And without the Yankee deep resources, they would have moved on to greener pastures. In fact, the Jeter contract might be the worst in all of baseball, well at least until last year or so when guys like Juan Pierre and GMJ started getting $10MM.

  10. Whoa. It is far from a bunch of nonsense. You can look at a lot of scenarios.

    In the short run MANY of those guys were good, if not great. Giambi was a monster for a couple of years. A-Rod is a monster. Sheffield was great. Damon has been pretty good (except for the injuries this year), but his numbers were/are better than Coco's.

    Pettitte was very good this year. He went 15-9 with a 4.05 ERA and pitched over 200 innings with 34 starts. If Schilling touches those numbers this year the Sox will be lucky. Those are comparable, and some better, with Daisuke.

    If the Sox traded for a pitcher this year that would go 7-1 against the Yankees a over the next two years and go 17-8 with a 3.79 ERA and pitch 225 innings, then follow that up with a down year of 17-11 200+ innings and a 5.00 ERA. Would you take it? That was Randy Johnson. Not really as big of a bust as we remember.

    I am not defending the Yankees, just my point of view here.

    Yes, the Yankees tried with Pavano (injuries) and Brown (a really bad idea). But the Sox had Renteria (still paying for him) and Clement (and Drew so far).

    Yes, the Yankees bullpen has been a lot of high paid guys who haven't performed (vets). But, maybe with the exception of this year, that was Theo's Achilles heel. Hell, even this year...Piniero, Donnelly, Gagne, Romero. And even Foulke was only good for one year...Remember Mantei, Seanez, Remlinger, Stanton...

    The differences are shrinking.

  11. getting guys who are in their prime is vastly, vastly different than what they Yankees have done in the past. Aging vets. In desperate moves.

    The Yanks signed Giambi before the 2002 season, when he was 31. In the previous 2 seasons he was the MVP and the MVP runner-up*, led the league in OBP and OPS+ both years, 2nd and 1st in runs created, etc. You can't possibly argue he wasn't in his prime. He was the best hitter in the AL, and by far the best in that FA class. And they went out and got him. Like they did with nearly every top FA/possible trade from 2000-2005. This is what we (or at least I) mean by "like the Yankees".

    Anyway - then what happened? The Yankees got him in his prime, offered him an insane amount of money (7 years, $120M), he had a couple great seasons (OPS over 1.000 in 2002)...and then he got old and useless. And now it's a god-awful contract. He got $23M in 2007, and they still owe him about $30M.

    Big, long-term contracts are scary. Who knows what sort of pitcher Santana will be in 2014. (Here's one projection.) Not saying the Sox shouldn't do it, just that I have mixed feelings.

    (*losing to Ichiro, whose OPS was about .300 lower)

  12. There's a lot of love for the Yankees here. Maybe the roles are now reversed. the Yankees are the lovable losers and the Sox are the Force.

    I just think this notion that the Sox are the New Yankees is a lot of bunk. That's all. we'll see if they go 6, 7 years with Johan. But the Sox really haven't hamstrung themselves long term the way the Yankees have. Sure there have been mistakes. But they have tended to be much shorter term and/or for younger guys. And with Renteria, give them credit, they cut their losses. And with Drew, he was pretty good in Sept/Oct. and as I said when they signed him - you can go back and look it up - JD did not have to be great for all five years. We know he will get hurt and miss time, but if he has 2, 3 good years and helps (i.e., contributes) them win 2 more WS before the Manny, Papi window closes, then his signing will be a success. Well he is 20% into that deal and half way to there.

    And meanwhile in NY, the Yankees just signe three more players this winter that they will be paying the most money to a player at their position in all of MLB when they will be 42 years old. I'm pretty sure the only 42 year olds that Theo has committed $$ to have been guys who are actually 41 or 42 years old.

  13. No, there is no love for the Yankees here...You said that the Sox becoming like the Yankees is a "bunch of nonsense". I was just pointing out that a lot of the practices are starting to look the same.

    Today, the line is out that Ellsbury can now be added to the trade (I guess instead of Coco). Now you are looking at Coco in CF, trading away your top infield prospect, maybe Buchholz or Lester, and at least one other top pitching prospect.